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	<title>Comments on: Windows Phone vs. the world, part 1: Developers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/</link>
	<description>by Paul Thurrott</description>
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		<title>By: WaltFrench</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-970</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WaltFrench]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-970</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great set of thoughts, especially what MS needs to succeed.

The developer angle to your great idea is that devs need a reason to believe the users will come. Right now, they  only see MS building a sturdy platform which will more than match the tools that Apple provided in 2007. There is no incipient tidal wave of excitement for the WinMo Total Package, so developers should project likely sales with only the edgy UI as a plus. Any developer — say, a startup doing the next Yelp-like social app that is how the world has moved beyond Web 2.0 (remember that quaint term?) — should make an effort-per-user calculation that puts WinMo as its third priority. At best.

Paul doesn&#039;t discuss one VERY important aspect of developing: getting paid for one&#039;s work. Any decent app takes a lot of time away from family or other opportunities; you have to believe it will be rewarded. Even tho I&#039;m an ex-developer, I am astonished at the silence from Redmond about why their work will be the Next Great Thing, better than all others. Logical interpretation: it won&#039;t, that&#039;s why.

Also of note: there is a fairly short list of smartphone efforts since Palm invented the category in 2002. Even if Apple didn&#039;t change the rules, but rather caught the wave at the perfect moment, MS has to look at Palm falling flat on its face with both Cobalt and WebOS; at Symbian^3 being abruptly aborted and an awkward science experiment entering its its place; at the near-panic at RIM to hold anything like its dominant place. Yes, it&#039;s a huge market, but the MS efforts look a LOT more like the efforts at the failures than the successes. I think WinMo is Ballmer&#039;s third envelope.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great set of thoughts, especially what MS needs to succeed.</p>
<p>The developer angle to your great idea is that devs need a reason to believe the users will come. Right now, they  only see MS building a sturdy platform which will more than match the tools that Apple provided in 2007. There is no incipient tidal wave of excitement for the WinMo Total Package, so developers should project likely sales with only the edgy UI as a plus. Any developer — say, a startup doing the next Yelp-like social app that is how the world has moved beyond Web 2.0 (remember that quaint term?) — should make an effort-per-user calculation that puts WinMo as its third priority. At best.</p>
<p>Paul doesn&#8217;t discuss one VERY important aspect of developing: getting paid for one&#8217;s work. Any decent app takes a lot of time away from family or other opportunities; you have to believe it will be rewarded. Even tho I&#8217;m an ex-developer, I am astonished at the silence from Redmond about why their work will be the Next Great Thing, better than all others. Logical interpretation: it won&#8217;t, that&#8217;s why.</p>
<p>Also of note: there is a fairly short list of smartphone efforts since Palm invented the category in 2002. Even if Apple didn&#8217;t change the rules, but rather caught the wave at the perfect moment, MS has to look at Palm falling flat on its face with both Cobalt and WebOS; at Symbian^3 being abruptly aborted and an awkward science experiment entering its its place; at the near-panic at RIM to hold anything like its dominant place. Yes, it&#8217;s a huge market, but the MS efforts look a LOT more like the efforts at the failures than the successes. I think WinMo is Ballmer&#8217;s third envelope.</p>
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		<title>By: zeblonite</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[zeblonite]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I interpreted his comment differently than you did, so I was surprised you took offense as you did.  Here&#039;s what I thought he was saying.

I think he&#039;s saying that the Windows OS &lt;i&gt;ecosystem&lt;/i&gt; has a vast breadth and depth, including information resources like Channel 9 and CodePlex, related technologies both large and small, and much more.  And he&#039;s right.  There are a LOT of resources out there in support of Windows and related tools and technologies.  A whole lot, much more than is available for any other platform ecosystem, including any Apple ecosystem.  That&#039;s not a statement on the goodness or badness of Apple technologies, it&#039;s a statement of the breadth of supporting resources.  It wasn&#039;t bashing.

I also took &lt;i&gt;user&lt;/i&gt; to mean a developer, a true user of the platform.  If I were an Apple developer and hadn&#039;t had a reason to delve into the wealth of supporting content for Windows developers, I probably wouldn&#039;t realize just how vast it is.  Again, not bashing.

Your take on his comments was so different from my own I had to go back and re-read his post.  Turns out I jumped to conclusions about what he meant, since it&#039;s not what he actually wrote, but I don&#039;t think my interpretation is wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I interpreted his comment differently than you did, so I was surprised you took offense as you did.  Here&#8217;s what I thought he was saying.</p>
<p>I think he&#8217;s saying that the Windows OS <i>ecosystem</i> has a vast breadth and depth, including information resources like Channel 9 and CodePlex, related technologies both large and small, and much more.  And he&#8217;s right.  There are a LOT of resources out there in support of Windows and related tools and technologies.  A whole lot, much more than is available for any other platform ecosystem, including any Apple ecosystem.  That&#8217;s not a statement on the goodness or badness of Apple technologies, it&#8217;s a statement of the breadth of supporting resources.  It wasn&#8217;t bashing.</p>
<p>I also took <i>user</i> to mean a developer, a true user of the platform.  If I were an Apple developer and hadn&#8217;t had a reason to delve into the wealth of supporting content for Windows developers, I probably wouldn&#8217;t realize just how vast it is.  Again, not bashing.</p>
<p>Your take on his comments was so different from my own I had to go back and re-read his post.  Turns out I jumped to conclusions about what he meant, since it&#8217;s not what he actually wrote, but I don&#8217;t think my interpretation is wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: roteague</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-966</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[roteague]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-966</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t have a major problem with Objective C being different, after all, that is how various programming languages evolve.

[I’m thinking of the way that MS developers have largely rejected MS efforts to push them towards MVC frameworks, and also the push back on Visual Basic (we don’t want your OO language). C# and even .NET apps still aren’t the norm on Windows.]

I&#039;m not sure about that. Right now, frameworks like MVC, MVVM are hot topics within the developer space, and most programming jobs require C# experience in some day. There may not be a lot of commercial development work going on in C# (although major portions of Visual Studio 2010 were written in WPF/C#), but there are a fair number of applications.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a major problem with Objective C being different, after all, that is how various programming languages evolve.</p>
<p>[I’m thinking of the way that MS developers have largely rejected MS efforts to push them towards MVC frameworks, and also the push back on Visual Basic (we don’t want your OO language). C# and even .NET apps still aren’t the norm on Windows.]</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure about that. Right now, frameworks like MVC, MVVM are hot topics within the developer space, and most programming jobs require C# experience in some day. There may not be a lot of commercial development work going on in C# (although major portions of Visual Studio 2010 were written in WPF/C#), but there are a fair number of applications.</p>
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		<title>By: daveedvdv</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daveedvdv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Xcode still (undeservedly) carries the &quot;poor IDE&quot; reputation from its 1.0 days.  Since then it has considerably improved and in a few areas (Instruments in particular) I think it can claim to have the upper hand over VS.

However, VS is overall still more solid, IMO.  The debugger is noticeably better and if you work a lot with C++, so is the built-in editor.  I think build-times are generally much better too (that really a compiler rather than IDE issue), but given that the input (e.g., header files) is different, it&#039;s an apples-to-oranges comparison (also, Microsoft&#039;s ISO C++ conformance is still pathetic whereas g++ 4.x is among the better C++ implementations).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Xcode still (undeservedly) carries the &#8220;poor IDE&#8221; reputation from its 1.0 days.  Since then it has considerably improved and in a few areas (Instruments in particular) I think it can claim to have the upper hand over VS.</p>
<p>However, VS is overall still more solid, IMO.  The debugger is noticeably better and if you work a lot with C++, so is the built-in editor.  I think build-times are generally much better too (that really a compiler rather than IDE issue), but given that the input (e.g., header files) is different, it&#8217;s an apples-to-oranges comparison (also, Microsoft&#8217;s ISO C++ conformance is still pathetic whereas g++ 4.x is among the better C++ implementations).</p>
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		<title>By: roteague</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-964</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[roteague]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the beauty of developing for Windows. The .NET framework help files indicate whether a specific function call supports which platforms (Win7, Mobile, etc). Many of the API calls are similar, but you are right, there does need to be documentation about which parts of the .NET framework are implemented in the WP7 space (not necessarily the individual API calls).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the beauty of developing for Windows. The .NET framework help files indicate whether a specific function call supports which platforms (Win7, Mobile, etc). Many of the API calls are similar, but you are right, there does need to be documentation about which parts of the .NET framework are implemented in the WP7 space (not necessarily the individual API calls).</p>
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		<title>By: roteague</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[roteague]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, it wasn&#039;t intended as a bash against Apple users. Most Apple users have no knowledge of what the full depth of Windows is; it isn&#039;t what they care about. I continually see this attitude quite often on the boards. I suspect, the majority of Windows users don&#039;t know this either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, it wasn&#8217;t intended as a bash against Apple users. Most Apple users have no knowledge of what the full depth of Windows is; it isn&#8217;t what they care about. I continually see this attitude quite often on the boards. I suspect, the majority of Windows users don&#8217;t know this either.</p>
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		<title>By: daveedvdv</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daveedvdv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note that I used the term &quot;game engines&quot; rather than games.  I should have been more precise still, since obviously one can write &quot;game engines&quot; whose performance requirements don&#039;t preclude a VM-based language implementation. My point though is that all high-end 3D engines are written with low-level languages (in practice: C and C++) possibly underneath a higher level API for the game logic.  The impedance adaptation between the low-level is easier/more-pleasant with dialects (ObjC, C++/CLI) than with entirely distinct languages (C#, Java).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that I used the term &#8220;game engines&#8221; rather than games.  I should have been more precise still, since obviously one can write &#8220;game engines&#8221; whose performance requirements don&#8217;t preclude a VM-based language implementation. My point though is that all high-end 3D engines are written with low-level languages (in practice: C and C++) possibly underneath a higher level API for the game logic.  The impedance adaptation between the low-level is easier/more-pleasant with dialects (ObjC, C++/CLI) than with entirely distinct languages (C#, Java).</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Thurrott</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-961</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Thurrott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right. :)

To my earlier point, it&#039;s one thing to make an Xbox 360 game. It&#039;s another to make one that works on both Xbox 360 and Windows Phone. And then another to make one where you can &quot;continue&quot; a play session in the 360 version when you started in WP (or vice versa).

This is a great capability, and one that sets WP apart from the iPhone or anything else. But it&#039;s not &quot;free.&quot; There&#039;s still work to be done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. :)</p>
<p>To my earlier point, it&#8217;s one thing to make an Xbox 360 game. It&#8217;s another to make one that works on both Xbox 360 and Windows Phone. And then another to make one where you can &#8220;continue&#8221; a play session in the 360 version when you started in WP (or vice versa).</p>
<p>This is a great capability, and one that sets WP apart from the iPhone or anything else. But it&#8217;s not &#8220;free.&#8221; There&#8217;s still work to be done.</p>
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		<title>By: vsameer</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vsameer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-960</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post Paul and great discussion guys.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Paul and great discussion guys.</p>
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		<title>By: iOS 4 はどうよ &#171; maclalala2</title>
		<link>http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-958</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[iOS 4 はどうよ &#171; maclalala2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://windowsphonesecrets.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/windows-phone-vs-the-world-part-1-developers/#comment-958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Windows Phone Secrets: &#8220;Windows Phone vs. the world, part 1: Developers&#8221; by Paul Thurrott: 20 June [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Windows Phone Secrets: &#8220;Windows Phone vs. the world, part 1: Developers&#8221; by Paul Thurrott: 20 June [...]</p>
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